A weekly new home marketing podcast for home builders and developers. Each week Kevin Oakley, Andrew Peek, Jackie Lipinski, Julie Jarnagin, and other team members from Do You Convert will break down the headlines, share best practices and stories from the front line, and perform a deep dive on a relevant marketing topic. We’re here to help you – not to sell you!
I'm just starting this slide, this misunderstanding, disagreement. I don't know what it is, but Andrew says, and I don't. You don't want to make anyone mad. Labor Day isn't his favorite holiday, but it's.
Andrew
Because I have nothing against it.
Kevin
is it because its a Holiday or because there's...?
Andrew
No no, I think there's other holidays I need to list before it. I guess I'm getting called out here a list of like I think there's other shut everything down worthy holidays that are not fully shut down for everyone. It's like that's a bank holiday only. I'm like, well, that should.
Kevin
Be arguing for more days off generally.
Andrew
Right? Like, that's like a mixed day. Like sometimes it's like, are banks closed? Not closed. I don't know. Schools are still and sometimes that one should just be Everything's done. I'll swap Labor Day for him. Okay. If we're to pick like, all right, there's eight holidays where everything's shut down. Christmas, July 4th, Memorial Day, whatever the other ones are.
Andrew
Thanksgiving.
Kevin
I figured it was just because, like, something that the weather in Florida wasn't working. Oh, it's still hot.
Andrew
And we just started school, like, three weeks ago, so it's like a month in a school. So it's like, do we need a holiday?
Julie
I don't know. Yeah, like something.
Andrew
Late September.
Julie
That end of summer real. I mean, that's how some people think of it, right? Like the polls close on Labor Day. But here too, it's still so hot.
Andrew
Yeah. Mhm. I think so.
Kevin
I just we had a we had a little typhoon here in Columbus, Ohio.
Andrew
Oh.
Kevin
Last night I kind of felt like what, Because, you know, Julia lives in Louisiana.
Andrew
She gets it all.
Andrew
I have pretend hurricanes.
Kevin
But there's this thing called a heat dome. How is it that every like three years they come up with some new term.
Andrew
They get me the clicks, heat dome. I like it. And we Google that there.
Kevin
There's a heat dome over over the Midwest and not the edge of the heat dome if you turn on the radar. And it was just this weird. It looked like just someone poured water out of a pitcher and it was just rolling straight from the corner of Michigan, straight down central Ohio. And it just kept coming. And it was like 7 hours of lightning, strong wind and just a ton of rain.
Julie
Oh, wild.
Kevin
Like, do I have to move? I mean, I Anyway, it was a good time.
Andrew
I just Google it. Yeah. Interesting. AP all about this. Hmm. And pumpkin spice lattes just came out today. It's related to the heat dome.
Kevin
We had this conversation on one episode. Yeah, there's a new pumpkin drink. What is it? It's another cold drink called chai something pumpkin. So now you have three pumpkin options at Starbucks.
Andrew
That's a lot.
Julie
Yeah. I don't do the pumpkin drinks.
Andrew
That's a lot of, like, pumpkin pie, spice, flavors all in one.
Kevin
This is to my favorite section, but ever since I got to spin coffee machine, I just don't. I do not desire Starbucks or like coffee out in the same way.
Andrew
Do you like iced coffees? I feel like you can't beat iced from Starbucks any like I have not been. You can.
Kevin
Do it. You can do cold brew. You can do nitro drip cold, whatever. Like it just says put ice in your cup and it cleans out the hot water. Puts in cold water.
Andrew
Yeah, we're all gonna all.
Julie
Be inside out. And Olivia said she's literally drinking the pumpkin chai right now. So she's like, Oh, there you go, pumpkin chai on trend.
Kevin
Is it good? I feel like it would be because chai is kind of a.
Andrew
I like chai. Yeah, 30 Chai. If I've had that chai with the espresso, it's amazing. We hear it's amazing. Like The Wizard of Oz back there helping to steal that.
Kevin
My favorite from my time in Nepal is Milk Coffee, which is, I think goat milk. Oh, no water and instant like instant crystals.
Andrew
Weird. Sounds like it's like that.
Kevin
And they're not the best milk coffee. Experience my life. All right, let's get started.
Andrew
There's the goat. Yep.
Kevin
Well, welcome to episode 300. I'm Kevin Oakley. And with me today is Andrew Peek and Julie's aunt again.
Julie
Me? Oh.
Andrew
Who knew we'd be doing this 300 episodes later?
Julie
That's impressive. That's crazy exciting. I have.
Kevin
I thought we make this our last one. Let's just end it right. Fine.
Andrew
I'm fine with that grand.
Kevin
Valley.
Andrew
Three. I want to be something new.
Julie
That's on market this year to make it really good, though, so.
Kevin
Oh, you know what we should do? Because this is what cracks me up when people do like season six episode one, it's like, just start. Like, I don't know why there's so much conscious thought put into that, but we should just. How about season two begins with a sincere one. We'll start with the season two episode one. Let's just start over because it's going to get obnoxious when we get to, you know, we got to figure out something else, Olivia Because when we get to episode 1200, it's just, it's too many things to say.
Andrew
Yeah, we can have different.
Kevin
Episode 1234.
Andrew
Thousand. It's now 2028 time right now. Oh, gosh, that's a long time.
Kevin
Oh, man. So the other thing that we're just going to keep talking about her like she's here with us, our producer, Olivia, is like, you know, we really do need to do live episodes of the podcast. So, okay, I think we decided on once a quarter, she's checking the calendar, but we will you'll hear about it that way.
Kevin
You can all join in, ask your questions, but they'll be fun. Fun time. Yeah. Maybe we can maybe pull people in for live Q&A or some live storytime we'd have to have like the voice and the voice.
Andrew
Changer.
Kevin
And zoom. That just makes you look like there's got to be the person in hiding and like, a in voice changer. I sorry time about this traffic that. Yeah.
Kevin
Oh, all right.
Andrew
Story is good for that speaking. Sorry time was up first. I got one. I didn't write it down. Yeah, I got one. Yeah, we had the academy last week, so that was. That was amazing. Taking through. Jeez, 11, 12 people. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. What's that like 12 hours of instruction? It wears me out like, Oh, my. And I'm.
Andrew
I'm doing half of it with Sarah. And what's, what's fun is over time, this is like inside knowledge over time. It's like, okay, you take that segment, I would take a break for a little bit. Like I just can't like, look at like at Zoom nice and pleasant for this long and I need to go camera off for like, for a little bit, get a little snack, refill my coffee, whatnot.
Andrew
So, you know, each one, it just changes and changes. And we Sarah and I meet afterwards every single time. Like, what can we do better? What can we do better? And every single time I'm just like, man, I want another day, which is like torture for everybody. Like, it's already four days. Andrew What is wrong with you? But there's just so much you can just keep going and going.
Andrew
I wish there was some way this. I'm just really open talking right now. We teach the definitions. We teach knowledge, the foundational things. All these things are super important thing. It's the analysis. And that is the most difficult part for everybody. And teaching, I don't there's we could teach it, but it's just so much just like experience. You just need the reps near the reps and the reps are what's Malcolm Gladwell 10000 hours.
Andrew
You need your thousand hours and an analysis. You need your next 1000. They need your next 1000. Time to get to ten. You're like, Oh, okay, this is fairly comfortable, but just getting over the hurdle even to like you spent 200 hours in analytics trying to solve a problem, not just like poking around in there. I wish there's a way to expedite that for people, but there's just there's not no.
Kevin
I don't think you want one. I mean, we've had lots of folks that are good intentioned and they're like, Kevin, we should just take this whole market, provide rhythm, and just have it spit out the answer.
Andrew
Like an app.
Kevin
Or give us, you know, even internally had a conversation where some people here were like, we just want a number to tell people for this thing of like, this is the goal. I was like, I mean, it doesn't really I, I know this is a well overplayed expression, which I think that reminds me, Olivia, next time I'm on the podcast, I want to have a whole section about things we never need to say again in our industry, that that's just I'm, I keep hearing the same.
Kevin
Like those were analogies and examples to use 12 years ago. Are we still talking about the same thing?
Andrew
But I don't know.
Kevin
The last one is in play. Chess. You do not want to. If you are a great chess player, you there should be no reason that you want to dumbed down the rules of the game to get back to checkers when you are a grandmaster at chess now you do have to be able to. And if you're a true grandmaster, you should be able to teach someone the basic rules and fundamentals of chess without losing your mind, screaming or pouting like a child.
Kevin
Okay, So that's that's I think, part of it.
Andrew
That's fair.
Kevin
But holy cow, what is this drive to get everything so really simplified? So I'm using the chess analogy because I think this is what I mean. I'm on Chess.com if you want to sign up and play me, I'll do it. But just know that I'm in the middle of probably parenting one of my four children and I will mess up.
Kevin
So excuse a great chess player yet, but thinking moves ahead, right? The more moves you can think ahead, the better. And how I view the analysis problem is that people look at it and go, I just want the answer. And again, there's all sorts of reasons why that's.
Andrew
Like the final move out. The final move. I don't care how we get there.
Kevin
But I think they do sometimes and this is on on me and all of us to do a better job teaching and training. They look at what someone who's thinking eight moves ahead and by I don't mean moves, I mean layers. Okay. To go away from the analogy of chess back to the actual thing we're doing here of there is the data and that in itself, let's just say, encompasses three or four layers of analysis, potential analysis.
Kevin
And there's always more than one potential. There's one potential. There's at least one true problem or issue. And each of those has no more than three possible reasons why there could be more than one true issue. And then that that, you know, extrapolates. But even beyond that, then you have to start talking, thinking about like, okay, well then let's layer over our company culture and then let's lay over how this sales manager thinks or how that salesperson acts or the usage or non usage of the CRM or the market and the competition and, and, and, and certainly the more layers you have to your point innately, most of it just requires repetition and experience because
Kevin
otherwise you just find yourself going through layers one through four and you're like, I got the answer, I'm done. And then I'm almost I'm almost done with this diatribe. You go and present. Let's say you feel really confident that you analyze those three or four layers well and you go into a meeting, you go up to your boss or the sales manager, like, here's what, And then they hit you with the one thing you didn't think of.
Kevin
And you're like, Oh, and you know, the Jenga pile just crumbles. I think I think there's just that aspect of and that's why we always talk about use humility with this stuff. It is not the data says X, therefore it must be X, It's hey, this is what it looks like. But is there something we're missing here? Is there something that we don't know but that's going on with this person personally or is there something with the land deal that requires us to be acting in this way because we have to perform in a certain, you know, Anyway, I just I love the fact that you brought that up.
Kevin
I think it's a whole other.
Andrew
That exactly what was fun was it's.
Kevin
Almost like you should talk about that at.
Andrew
The.
Kevin
Summit.
Andrew
And so like food. So let's talk about food. Beth So one thing we did different with this academy is usually it is Sarah and I, 95% of it. And then I add to Kevin's calendar like 6 hours before it starts, like, Hey, Kevin, I want you to talk about this. And Kevin hops on and does some inspirational talking like, Hey, what's the role of marketing?
Andrew
Like, No, no, no. And what's fun is no one gets that answer correct at the beginning. It's day one unless.
Kevin
They've heard it before.
Andrew
That is true. Unless they've heard it before it. The second day, I'm like, Oh, let's have a coach on. Julie, you're our next victim. And in November, by the way, get her some notice. Beth hopped on and she she did a very similar analogy, Kevin, where she talked about onions. And so, like if you're day one or we had some people that there like month three on the job, they can only go to the first layer in the onion.
Andrew
Meanwhile, we're over here kind of talking and then just like visualizing and thinking like we know there's like 12 layers to this thing. We also know there's old onions we need to think about and there's future. And we're like all excuse me, all over the place with it. So the Onion analogy, I'm like, Oh, that's good. There might be tears too, as you learn more and more Onion feels that has me like, Oh, I'm embarrassed.
Andrew
I didn't know that. Or like, I feel like an idiot. But over time, like you didn't.
Kevin
Realize that it's just more such a nerd. And then we just had a special guest pop on, which this is a.
Andrew
Surprise party.
Kevin
And you never need an invitation. Don't don't give away who yet, but as a kid, I remember watching Lawrence of Arabia, which is a way too long movie in an old theater. My parents made me go I think I was seven, the only scene from that. And I think it's three and a half hours long and has two different intermissions or whatever.
Kevin
There's one scene where Lawrence of Arabia puts out a candle with his fingertips and the guy looks at him and says, Holy cow, what's the trick to doing that? Because because it looks like there's a trick, because it doesn't cause him any pain. He doesn't like his fingers. He just pushes it and he goes, The trick is making it look like it doesn't hurt.
Kevin
And I just think like that's we've talked about this many of our ways, the confidence aspect. In fact, what do we say on I call it it's either it's either lack of confidence or lack of competence. So some good alliteration there. But it goes back to repetition, repetition, repetition. Hey, Carla, Welcome.
Julie
Hi, I'm.
Andrew
Friend.
Karla
Good. What are you doing?
Kevin
Oh, we're just recording a podcast. And Carlos, our creative director. And do you convert? For those of you who may be under a rock, she's taking names and changing lives all over the industry. What's what's the what's going on right now? Carla, What's. What do you. What are you doing? What's keeping you busy these days?
Karla
I'm busy all the time. I feel like the last time I was on here was back in January, so I decided to crash a party.
Andrew
It's been a while.
Karla
It has been a while. But I do slack, y'all. Y you're always recording. You can't talk. I'm recording. I'm like, Okay, well, um, I don't know. It's funny how there's always, like, these weird trends. At the beginning of the year, it was very heavy. Like, but everyone wanted to redo their collateral and refresh it. And then we went into like a signage program.
Kevin
Yeah, I was going to say signage would be my guess, the next one. And by the way, isn't it interesting that if you heard someone talk about like hearing these trends like we do on, on this podcast, you'd be like, does that really happen? Or and then you go do it yourself and you're like, There's something in the water or the air or like, there's this behind the scenes network of Let's all talk about signage.
Kevin
It comes in waves for sure.
Karla
It's really weird. And then the other last month had a bunch of, you know, probably like five different calls, different builders around the country, and they're all talking about like their sales office. And I'm like, what is going on? How is everyone wanting to now look into like their interior signage mission is bizarre. And then I was in book a book booklet land for a while, like maybe.
Kevin
Like real paper things.
Karla
Print I've done. So print booklets that took up my time for the.
Kevin
Like.
Karla
I don't.
Kevin
Mean like checks notes or checks calendar what year we live in, but, you know, Yeah.
Julie
Yeah, there's a lot of that. I didn't expect it like collateral you expect but like long booklets, 20 pages.
Kevin
Because you could or could not print the collateral. It's like how it's displayed. Yeah. Took them off, you know, printed. Yeah.
Karla
They want like hard copies. Interesting. So that doesn't sound cheap. It doesn't. It sounds like something else. It's not that sounds. But I am sort of buying the booklets.
Andrew
Yeah, that would be pricey.
Kevin
Is there something that you've been doing this now, like you said, for a little while? I mean, you've been doing it a long time, but doing it with with us. Is there a we were just talking about like the the trend of analysis being hard outside of what people are actually asking you to do. Is there something that you find yourself having to explain or re-explain or.
Karla
Yeah.
Kevin
Re-explain again, as a concept that you just want to kind of toss out again here?
Karla
Probably you have to think about, here's one, I'll talk about it because it's about collateral. And so usually when we start with that, I'm kind of like, give me everything that you have because you probably haven't touched it. And what typically happens, it comes off as a these ideas part from sales and marketing, and they get tagged onto the collateral package as these one off pieces.
Karla
So I'm like, Hey, let's go ahead and take a look at this is yet another foot view. And more often than not, they have a billion pieces. That's evergreen material. And I'm like, Why don't you think about making this a better experience instead of someone having a bunch of one pictures? So I would always say, take a step back, think about the experience, what you're giving these people.
Karla
Are you burying them in tons of copy and things they may not want to read? And is there a better way to display that? Should we make it into a book? Should we? That is even important. Do you want to cut some of this out? That's typically what we're talking about when we talk about like looking at all their stuff.
Kevin
Mm hmm.
Karla
It's very easy, I think, for people to just. Oh, this is a good idea. Element is I don't a piece of paper on a word document and they always don't think about how it looks or how it's saved or how much stuff people are gathering.
Kevin
Yeah, a quick, quick poll on material or files. Generally, I'm not going to answer until the end because. But don't you think that or do I already led the witness? Sorry. Shouldn't every document that could be potentially sent or accessed or shared have some general repository that is accessible? Like like nobody home didn't start out doing this, but they found that people were like, I have all these documents that I send people maybe post-purchase or pre-purchase.
Kevin
And there is no place on their website. They just how's everything even like you think about docs? So like, why is that hard to find for nonexistent on a builder site?
Karla
That would be nice to have.
Kevin
That's right.
Karla
Resource library.
Andrew
That'd be that'll be great. Especially HRA stuff is interesting. I mean at least our experiences, we changed each way. Management companies like four times before, it was like our control, but it was like with it was still with the builder. So we're like, Who's in charge here? Who's in charge as homeowners do you blame? I mean, everything is always the builders fault, like always.
Andrew
That's just made us, even though it's the way management company's fault, because you chose that terrible company, the builder, and so everything is the builder.
Kevin
So just make it easy for that saying I'm not suggesting it should be like front and center underneath our image or whatever it be for us. We just had a archway section, so we had it. We had a document library or a overall, I think we just called it Media Library and it had like any photo you might see on a community page would also be accessible in this Keystone Homes ish for those of us.
Kevin
Like, it's like all of our pictures are here is searchable by everything, but also they're on the individual pages that are relevant to them. Same with videos and documents. And so we didn't even have a link on the community page to the docs because that might be distracting or confusing. Yeah, but certainly any time someone would ask, can I get a copy of my HRA docs that then the online sales person or salesperson who would then train the customer.
Kevin
Actually, there's this library over here and you can access anything that we have or need need to get to and it's grouped and searchable and all the rest anyway. And just when you were talking about like how separated each piece kind of is, instead of thought of in a cohesive manner. Manner. Yeah, it made me think about.
Karla
The only thing I would say that I've experience with something like that. Well, it just comes up in collateral information in general. Is that I think some teams can be lazy because someone has to keep up with the information being up to date. And so if you take the time to like make sure you have a good organization in place, like a good file, good filing, and like, you know, what's more up to date.
Karla
Yeah, good nomenclature. You make sure everything is what it's supposed to say, then I think it's definitely doable. But I think people just sometimes just, you know, maybe not able to. Yeah, it's a big thing to kind.
Kevin
Of we got at that pushback all the time at Heartland and that was my that was my reason for wanting it to be out there in the wild is I just found that if it wasn't accessible by the customer, things never got updated or there were four copies going around. But once there was like, No, no, you know, some yeah, maybe someone has a document that's out of date.
Kevin
You have to make sure everything's dated and, and like last updated and the corner. But it was like, yeah, that document's incorrect, but I'd rather we know that and then we fix it versus having no visibility or people handing out something that's five years old that has four updates and they still have copies somewhere else saved locally, or just like, Nope, the truth is there for the customer.
Kevin
So that's the impetus to always make sure as it's correct, just like pricing.
Andrew
Yeah, it doesn't create a problem which exposes what was already there.
Kevin
Shines a light on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Well, Karla, thanks for hopping on. Yeah, Bye. Any time. I love. I love just the mean. Yeah, It's like you work here.
Karla
It is Like I want to keep it creative cave and create a cave.
Andrew
With your plan.
Karla
The next.
Kevin
Time. Bring some next time. Since this is now a video show as well. Next time, I want you to bring some like, show and tell us something.
Andrew
Yeah, there they go.
Kevin
By the way, if you don't follow girl on Instagram, you should, because that's when you get some additional exposure to like show and tell.
Karla
Oh, yes, I'm very quiet about it. Anyway, you'll have a good afternoon. Bye.
Kevin
This is episode 300. You made it.
Andrew
Yeah, 303.
Kevin
I'm like the biggest episode zero yet. Yeah.
Julie
That's the best. All right, y'all have a good one. This is fair to say, Julie.
Kevin
Story time.
Julie
So I am watching my mom shop for a car, and it's been very entertaining. And the last thing I heard her say was that she was annoyed because she wanted somebody to beg her to buy a car and they were not begging her. So what happened is she had reached out to somebody about a car and they had never emailed or called her back.
Julie
And I know we always feel or hear people saying, Oh, I don't want to bug people. Well, she's annoyed because she wants to feel like they're begging her to buy a car. And then the other thing that's been funny is she's gone out to a few lots and of course, there's not a lot of cars. You know, still, there's issues with like actually having cars there.
Julie
And she's not being super picky. She kind of knows what she want. She wants three rows and she wants a new car and there's only a brand or two that she doesn't like, but she's pretty open. But I think Kevin and I have had multiple conversations in the last week or two about the messaging of like, we have homes because there are people who are moving that need a home and we have finished inventory.
Julie
And those people need to know we have finished inventory. So it's again, it's the same thing with her. If there was a car dealership out there, you know, that would tell her, we have this many cars that you can choose from. Right now we have this many SUVs or whatever it is. Yeah, that's the messaging she needs. And she also needs the messaging of like, we want you here.
Julie
Like, she feels like people aren't trying to get her to come out and aren't calling her back. So it's just been a fun process to watch with with what we do.
Kevin
It's really interesting because my wife's birthday was on Tuesday and she likes Cheesecake Factory because there's all kinds of options and we were going to have my parents come as well. So there's a table of eight, and at least here, the Cheesecake Factory is still cool in central Ohio. So most time you got a long wait. And I think you're talking about cars, which typically is a reference point of like, why can't homebuilders do things like car dealers do historically, like be more responsive, but now they're changing.
Kevin
And my point is, whether it's Cheesecake Factory or Toyota. As a consumer, you are trained by all of your interactions with all the companies. You do what to expect or to assume. And so it's it's interesting how that dynamic does shift because typically it's like like my kids are like, you don't want to go to Cheesecake Factory. You got to wait for 2 hours and then it's going to take forever to cook because there's so many different options on the menu.
Kevin
But I really want to go there. So we pull it up and on the front page it's like make a reservation. Like we've never been able to make a reservation at Cheesecake Factory ever. And then it says Only up to table Party of six. And I'm like, up, see, they got us because we need eight. But then there's like, you could tell that it had been designed to say parties of six and under but then someone to just add a line of text that said but if you have a bigger party and it's on a non busy day or time, we'll try to work with you.
Kevin
And it's like, why did that have to be there? It's because the dynamics have shifted. And so there is this point in time where we stopped eating out altogether because it was just always a pain, always busy, always short staffed, and now they're like, Oh yeah, no problem. Come on in at 530, 6:00 on a Tuesday night.
Andrew
With a.
Kevin
Table of eight reserved. And so it's that training and that's why we've had these conversations. Julie, of, you know, that concern about having like six homes available in a community and not looking bad or desperate that that might not be true anymore. We don't know someone might look at that six available in a single community and be like oh thank God I can actually maybe get one of them.
Kevin
Is the use on market is still so difficult in most parts of the country.
Julie
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew
What's interesting, Julie, is that sounds like the most amazing car shopping experience ever. Them not hounding you like it's a dream for me and you want to be like, Mom, you're not trying to date this person. Like what? Despite you want that car right there. But if they don't call you, you're not going to buy it. Like, I don't feel like that.
Kevin
By saying beg in quotes. Like my dad had the same experience. He just shop for a car. He would go to a Lexus dealership and they'd be like, Oh, we don't you know, you couldn't even talk to a salesperson. You had to talk to the receptionist because they didn't want you to feel like you were busy. And then the guy would show up and he's like, Oh, sorry, I can't get any of the keys to test drive anything.
Kevin
It's locked in a safe. Can you come back some other day? And they never call. That's just like, Here's my card. You follow up with me when you want to come back out. Like it's. It's this complete lack of any customer experience.
Julie
Yeah, that's. She's like, it's one of those experiences where it's like, I want to give you money. Like I have money to give you to buy a car and nobody acts like they want to help me with this, you know? So I think it's just frustrating for her that nobody is taking her. And so if she comes out and she's like, This is what I'm looking for.
Julie
And they're just like, now, you know, I think it's just she doesn't feel like anybody is there to help her through the process and she's getting frustrated with it.
Andrew
Make you want to go Tesla and just like next next next next $500 deposit that shows up in a month done.
Kevin
Right.
Andrew
Yeah no people.
Kevin
Still well it is an argument for a really good self service but it always comes back to the complexity of the purchase, the fear of making a wrong decision, and the number of options that home builders have. Make self service, generally speaking, not the same experience. And I always go back to like, yeah, there's so many different apps that say design your own home with this fun, you know, architectural app and it's easy as one, two, three.
Kevin
You look at the and then you try to like design anything and it just keeps saying error error like why can't I put that window there? I don't know. It just won't let me. It's just not as intuitive still as an opening.
Julie
Especially for her. This would not work for her. She's over 70. I know some people over 70 would love it, but not her specifically.
Andrew
No.
Kevin
Yeah.
Andrew
I would love it.
Kevin
My story time is just about the first part anyway, is how difficult it is to create something. Andrew and I were talking about this too, because, you know, he's creating new content. He and Sarah are also making new content for the market proof of Academy. And I was asked by NAHB to do a webinar and around a topic that I wrote for Builder magazine about.
Kevin
So I like I have the content I know like it's my own story in a way of my experience with Hartland of navigating a downturn market and what we did and how we did. I wrote this 1100 word article already and yet to sit down and craft from a blank set of PowerPoint slides, which I don't even love, really using slides in the same way as most people anyway.
Kevin
But it was just I had this experience when I was done with it of am I getting it like I'm not too old for this, I'm not giving up. But there is is like for 10 minutes afterwards, I was just so mentally exhausted from putting in the effort of building what ended up being like a 38 page presentation from nothing that I was just like, I'm too old for this.
Kevin
Like, this is a young person's game making content and this is just hard. And that's, that's I think why people love the idea of I help and prompting and the rest. But anyway, I just shout out to anyone who ever makes anything. And Julie just wrote a book, but like creating something, especially when it's a combination of factual data and opinion and storytelling and, and, and who that's just tough.
Kevin
It's it's really, really tough. Now, the payoff was, was awesome because we ended up having I think over 450 people ended up registering put a link in the shots because they said, though as soon as it's posted on their website, we'll be able to put a link in for people to watch the replay as well. A lot of good questions, really good interactions, good time, but man is.
Kevin
But then there's the podcast, which is the opposite, and it's like this is the easiest thing ever. I look at the show notes 10 minutes before we hit record. We just talk time. We're swapping out articles last second or you know it. This is so effortless for me anyway. But creating that type of content is really hard. And so if.
Julie
You put 1000 hours in on the podcast, is part of it, you're comfortable really, you're just you've had enough reps of that. Also, I think the hard thing is, is that good content looks effortless. So we're watching other people's content and we're like, Man, why is that? Why does mine not look like that? Why does mine feel so hard?
Julie
And then what you don't know is that just because it looked easy doesn't mean it was easy. So almost my story time. So I'm going to do a story time Part two. So. Okay. I'm a purple though, in jujitsu, so I'm usually one of the higher belts, if not the highest in the morning class that I go to.
Julie
And there's a lot of white belt women there.
Andrew
For those who don't know, that means you can probably kick anyone's but at the summit.
Julie
Right? Well, lots of that out there. But so the professor, the coach there, sorry, this is making our story time really long. That's the coach there. Some mornings we'll say, okay, higher belts, you have to let the lower belt start wherever they want. So these white belt girls who are younger than me, probably stronger than me, can say, okay, I would like to start on your back with like about ready to choke you or I would like to start like on top of you.
Julie
And so then I have to work on my escapes and they get a chance to like, work on submissions and things. And so then when I get out, they're like, Man, that was so easy for you to get out. And I want to say, shut your mouth. It was not it was it was terrible. I was fighting for my life.
Julie
That's like you think that it looked easy, but it was terrible for me. Like I hated it. Yeah. You know, so sometimes we look at people's content that's good, and we're like, Oh, but that's so easy for them. They just created that and it looked great. But you don't know that they're kind of fighting for their lives or have done that.
Julie
Many reps are working so hard to make it look that easy. So I think the same to you. People probably saw your presentation. Oh well, this is easy for them, but they don't know what it took behind the scenes to make it look effortless. Right.
Kevin
And I, I think if you're a good presenter in any medium, you always are thinking about the audience experience and how they're absorbing it. And the podcast. I just feel like there's I mean, hopefully you're, you know, mowing the lawn, taking a walk, cooking dinner, like this is a great medium to do something else. At the same time.
Kevin
So it's like this and, and that's length and consistency mean that again, if you're sitting down on your couch with your popcorn and watching this, please don't tell me if you are, because I want to get you something special. I'll buy you popcorn for a year or something if that's actually what's happening. But there just seems like less pressure versus a straight for the same thing happens with the summit content.
Kevin
It is like you have to put time aside and it's not for me anyway. It's not repetition or practice of the content. It's the constant someone sitting in a seat that may or may not be comfortable after sitting in it for 4 hours. And I want to make sure that the visual payoff as much as possible of what I'm talking about connects or translates or adds something extra and isn't just like, anyway, I just yeah, it's hard.
Kevin
I think content is hard. And you write thousand out the 10,000. I mean, should I should do the math. But if you average six or 7 hours a day talking to people times almost ten years now, I guess talking is not the hard part for me.
Andrew
You know.
Kevin
All right, on to the news and we will try to keep those types of the episode doesn't go forever. MarketWatch dot com mortgage rates could hit 8% economists say, citing a worrying sign not seen since the Great Recession. The 30 year rate is at a critical stage. Lawrence Yun, chief economist at the National Association of Realtors, told MarketWatch.
Kevin
This is confusing to a lot of people. I feel like we've talked about a couple of times, but just for clarity, the Federal Reserve changes short term rates, the rest of the bond market and Treasury market adjusts based upon supply and demand for different lengths of maturities. The most important one for mortgages is the ten year Treasury note, so that has its own pricing that is not directly impacted by the Fed.
Kevin
There's a there's a correlation, but it's not directly affected. And then there is a risk premium that people who give money for mortgages want. So the ten year is considered a very safe investment. Unless the US government ceases to exist, they pay their debt by making more money, which is a whole other topic out of thin air. But you're going to get your money from that ten year Treasury bond.
Kevin
So if people are default on a mortgage, there's a risk that that could occur, especially when the market in the future doesn't look as rosy. And so the the Delta between the ten year and what mortgage rates are at is known as a risk premium. That risk premium and the ten year are both expanding. And that's why even though rates haven't changed very much, they're still headed up and may go headed higher.
Kevin
So in some sense, before we get into really the the full article, it's it's kind of I would say it is really smart people who have a lot of money at risk saying I think in the near term there is maybe a slightly higher likelihood of people being foreclosed on or loans not being paid back. And so I want more profit basically from the loan to cover potential losses.
Kevin
So that's that's why that that spread is so important to watch and understand. Anything else in this article that that you all.
Julie
Know the I thought it was interesting that they were talking about don't expect the higher rates to hurt home prices. So some people may think, oh, because rates are going up and less people are going than your home prices are going to go down. They said that the that will only happen if the job market, if people are losing their jobs and then that would be when that would happen.
Julie
So I thought that was an interesting point.
Andrew
Yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, you know, different local Facebook groups and there's still this weird like thought that like everything is going to crash and people are waiting to buy for this inevitable crash and maybe people want Why would you want that? Like, that's so psychotic. Like what I want the world to be like. They want like, a recession, Great Recession.
Andrew
I'm like, what is wrong with you? First of all? Like, it's not going to happen.
Kevin
Because it's going to affect everyone else. They'll be unaffected.
Andrew
They'll be unaffected. They'll still have their job perfect, and there'll be any change they could just scoop up a house half the price, what it is now. But so that's just it's interesting that I don't know. That's a common thought, but it definitely seems a somewhat common thinking. But just looking at this one part here, it's like he noted that monthly mortgage payment for a median priced home in 2019 was 1100.
Andrew
Today, at 8%, that payment would be over 2300.
Kevin
So that does not include taxes and interest, I believe.
Andrew
But then you need to go like, well, those people who didn't buy it either time, what is their rent? Right. It could be 2823 is better than 28. So I'm saying that like this seems very doom and gloom, but like knowing people in our lives that are younger, like, Oh, but in house. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, can I have some details?
Andrew
You know, like, I do stuff like, and every single person went down at least 2 to $300 renting to now owning a home. So my Oh, okay, cool. Now they are fortunate, like their career wise, they both had higher income established jobs, so they're both like they made 100 combined income, not not each, but like both. So they able to save up some money.
Andrew
And then both for Ira, both had down payment assistance from the county. Yeah. Which is more interesting. But prices were both met for hundreds for their homes.
Kevin
Beth Russell sharing screenshots of articles, talking about how housing has just become completely like it's I forget the exact headline, something about no one can afford to buy anymore. And what's interesting, I just replied back quickly like that also means people can't afford to sell. And so that, you know, if rates continue to go higher, I think there will be fewer sellers until, to Yoon's point, people have job losses.
Kevin
But until that point just means there's going to be fewer existing homes on the market and builders are always going to have something for sale.
Andrew
So more houses be perfect. Yeah. Builders, there's the supply.
Kevin
All right. Up next, this is a I really want to talk about this one, even if it's the last one we do. I don't care from geek it Slate.com don't discount the merits of a friction ful transaction. This is written by Drew Myers, the guy I've got to know over the last year and a half or so. Really good guy.
Kevin
Friction is good. Not bad. At least in the residential real estate context. And he goes on to cite all of these different tools, services, platforms that want to make moving it at the push of a button easy. And then he's like, should it be easy? Are you going to make a great decision? If purchasing a home is as easy as ordering light bulbs off Amazon?
Kevin
Should it should it should something that impacts your life so, so severely is a real benefit to having that be frictionless at point.
Julie
I don't think friction less should be the goal. I think figuring out where the friction should be and where the friction should be in places where we strategically want to slow the process down. So there should be parts of the process that we want to go quickly and easily and parts where we want that friction because we need people to slow down and not just to make the right decision.
Julie
But you also can't build a relationship with somebody which sometimes you need to know because, you know, if you want to do more personalization or you want to listen or you want to find out what they want, you're going to have to slow that part down or it's not going to happen. So I think it's just being more strategic about where it needs to go fast and where it needs to go slow and leave the friction in those places.
Julie
We need to slow it down.
Kevin
Right. I think his argument here is a somewhat moral, you know, he goes into credit cards are easy and there's lots of studies that show if you pay in cash versus a credit card, you're going to you're going to be making smarter financial choices overall. And so he's like over half a century of cognitive science. And studies have shown that people who do multitask or move quickly.
Kevin
And so then he's like, I promise buyer solutions to both with one seamless experience of here's the house for you. It's perfect in every way. Push the button. It's yours. And he's like, Should this desk be compressed to make it as easy to drop 200 grand or $2 million on a house? As easy as it is to drop a $5 bill on some other product or service.
Andrew
I would like.
Kevin
This is how he says. I don't buy the idea that people need or even want to buy houses with a single tap on their phone. Sequencing steps helps buyers minimize the chances of a poor investment decision with their hard earned dollars.
Andrew
I think this is my bias, or maybe this is what I think I don't. People are being polite by using the word frictionless by saying I think that transactional cost to sell and buy a home is absurd, right? Like if you were to sell.
Kevin
That is true. A lot of it is focused on like.
Andrew
Hodling, like realtors, then like, hey, is there a way to get rid of this percentage? Or maybe you should shift that money to like, Hey, the inspection needs more money behind it and we could have a better inspection for a used home and more emphasis on that versus this kind of general contractor bringing in different trades to get it done.
Andrew
And they're the ones making the most money on the transaction. I don't if that. So, Drew, if you're listening, maybe have a part two of transact, you know, what we should is the same.
Kevin
Thing or something and see if he wants to come on some time on, I guess, episode. But one example would be like inspections, housing inspections. Is it really in the buyer's interest to waive those or to let's say that there's a company that says we'll do an AI powered inspection utilizing large amounts of data and we'll just estimate a likely cost of repairs.
Kevin
Just so you have a sense of it. You can either push a button and get that for two bucks or you can wait 72 hours to have for a week to have an actual in-person inspection. Now, I'm not saying take away the optionality for the buyer because that's a negotiation tactic of I'm not going to require that. But all things being equal, just like, is it better to walk through physically the space that you're about to purchase or do it virtually, which is like and this goes like, we are really quick to give away the best option for just one that's better or good enough.
Kevin
And I think that's kind of what you're saying. Julie There's there's things where we should always be optimizing to just the best and maybe a good enough in some areas is okay. But I if, if my one of my four kids goes to buy a house that's 25 years old and like, Hey dad, we're going to waive inspections, I'd be like.
Andrew
No, you're not.
Julie
Well, And sometimes it takes a human to explain that, you know what I mean? Like the giving option just on an automated system is different than having a person telling you what the differences in those two choices are.
Kevin
Right? I've even had people tell me, like, I waved my it's like, no matter what happens with the inspection, I can't get out of the contract, so I'm not going to do an inspection and like, you're nuts. Why would you still not want to know?
Andrew
They still know.
Kevin
You may not be a reason to get out of the contract, but at least now you know for planning before you show up, you move in and try to take a bath in the tub, falls through the second floor. I think you would want to still know. I mean.
Andrew
Yeah, all the hurricane things are missed very commonly. Even a newbuilds like, right, Matt Then insurance like that. That sounds terrifying. Hurricane coming. You're like, I wish we got an inspection. Make sure the straps and all that stuff is done correctly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's. I do both. All right, next your question.
Kevin
I mean, it's it's a good thought process and I and I agree that we should be going after the best which might have a little bit of friction but if it's if it's in everyone's best interest and that kind of goes back to like the whole e-commerce ification of our industry I think is a little bit overplayed, not not totally, but a little bit from Reuters.com.
Kevin
Evergrande Remember them files for us Bankruptcy protection as China economic fears mount. So this isn't just a story about Evergrande, which is your remember the place that had like was a 15 or nine towers imploded that were partially built.
Andrew
A billion.
Kevin
Ghost cities. We talked all about this a couple of years ago I think now well they're back the the whole real estate market and China's a mess. Trusts aren't paying out the funds that they're supposed to be. There's people protesting again. So that's interesting in and of itself that it's real estate that's having an issue there. But also just generally a lot of the global economies now are headed towards a recession or a severe decline in activity from where they have been.
Kevin
And China is typically a big economic engine. So even if you believe in the soft landing theory of what's going to happen to the U.S. market broadly, there's always a statement of, you know, in China, when China sneezes, the U.S. catches a cold, vice versa, like these two really big economies, there is this global impact. And so Europe's doing poorly, Japan's doing poorly, China is doing poorly.
Kevin
And a sense that even if things are great here, you're going into the end to the end of this year, early next year. Just kind of general economic activity in the world is not good. And that's quick aside, sorry I'm talking so much on this one, everyone. But I was having this conversation of someone was saying, Kevin, how do you feel about the housing market over the next 12 to, 24 months?
Kevin
And here's here's my main thing is I can't think of in the stock market language, they call it a catalyst like is the stock going to go up or down? There needs to be some new piece of information that is a catalyst for change. I can't think of very many positive catalysts except for the one we just mentioned of existing homes not being available, but they're already not really available in most markets.
Kevin
So it might get a little bit better if rates go higher and less are available for us. Maybe. But it's almost like all of the good catalysts have already happened or are in play like now. Homes are available. Pricing in a lot of cases have adjusted or come down. And so then there's like the market catalysts that I, I can't really foresee.
Kevin
But if you can think of any show it did you convert dot com or just reach out to us on social channels. We'd love to hear your thoughts. And then the second thing is from a marketing perspective, even if the market's not doing great as a marketer, if there is some new thing that we could all be working on that always of ups the energy level of like, okay, well we can't do this, this and this, or we can go do this thing that's new and different.
Kevin
And there is a little bit of that. And certainly the focus that Julie is helping with with her book on on content is a big piece of it. But again, in terms of a brand new kind of like we've all known we needed to do content well for a long, long time.
Andrew
Yeah.
Kevin
Julie's book is a great resource to help us do that better. People are budget, more money to it, but it's not like a completely brand new catalyst thought of this is really going to ignite something. So I think that's why I'm just generally I kind of like, enjoy what you got, why you got it. Keep getting better, keep your eye on the ball, work hard.
Kevin
All right. All the phrases from oh, yeah, something else.
Andrew
All the phrases, all the phrases there. Keep going.
Kevin
From Zillow.com. First home ownership surges. Half of all home buyers are making their first purchase. Half of all home buyers are purchasing their first home, the highest share that Zillow has ever recorded. And for Housing Trends Report finds that first time buyers now make up 50% of all home buyers, up from 45% last year, and a meaningful jump from 37% in 2021.
Kevin
That's really interesting to me.
Andrew
Yeah. Trump on the age group they had is that millennials, which are 29 to 43 year olds, that's not what we think of young people, right?
Kevin
Right. But they haven't been buying homes. Yeah. So these aren't large numbers until recently.
Andrew
Young people.
Kevin
Yes. I just think I find it ironic that when in an era of affordability being the main reason slash excuse that people say why homes aren't selling, people can't buy that. It's first time buyers that make up 50%. What do you think?
Julie
Well, it's it's also what you what you know, if you don't know if you're coming into this market and it's the first time you've bought. I just now Googled we bought our first little condo in 2001 and I just Googled. So I don't know how accurate this is. That said, the rate's average 7.24%. Like they were terrible. We didn't know any different.
Julie
It's different this time around because they were down to three and they came up to this. And so it's news. But also if they weren't already in a home with a 3% interest rate. So it is to just speaking to your audience and realizing that not every single person you're talking to is currently in a house with a 3% mortgage rate.
Julie
There's people paying cash. There's, you know, first time homebuyers, There's all these other people who are also in the market that we also need to speak to.
Kevin
That takes us back to where we keep talking about on all of our calls with our with our builder partners and on leadership calls is right now the market is being driven by the four D's death. Diamond's divorce and diapers like that's regardless of where affordability is to your point. Like those are the reasons that you're saying okay.
Kevin
We're going to buy a house or need a change in our in our situation. GREEN No. All right. Favorites.
Andrew
Favorites. So let's say what's not what's not my favorite way.
Kevin
We started this new last time. It doesn't have to be a favorite anymore. It could be just something that's really pissing you off.
Andrew
Oh, well, this is perfect, then. This boom stand is pissing me off. If you've seen me, me, myself. And because it keeps fun, it keeps falling down. So I have a new one that Amazon said. Your shipments arriving late or something. Supposed to be here this morning. I'm like, Oh, I arrive here at 7:11 a.m.. Perfect. It's one this one is like it's blue.
Andrew
The blue brand. I think they make a fake out. They make microphones and stuff. It's like a hundred bucks, but it's tension based. So it's like the weather affects it and humidity, for whatever reason is super annoyance. I just bought one that's like you just lock it in because it really doesn't move. I'm excited to replace it. This thing is super annoying.
Andrew
Don't buy it. It's awful. Well, it's.
Kevin
One of those things. It's not a buy once. Try once deal with Julie. I thought that would be sad that she bought her camera. But it is one of those things like arm. I had the same challenge, but there's a tension adjustment piece on it.
Andrew
Yeah, but.
Kevin
For the last year I have not bothered to mess with. I'm just like the things slowly would float up and it would annoy me and I'd push it back down and it would stay there for 5 minutes and then slowly float back up. Just having the right equipment is half the battle. It's worth it almost every time. And then the second is just taking the time again to take care of it like I talked about before.
Kevin
But yeah, that's.
Andrew
It's so someone wants to.
Julie
Mine are homework helpers this year for math he has homework helpers. We're basically has the same worksheet that he's working on that shows you what you're supposed to do without the answers on it. Thank goodness, because I was having to google everything. And it's not that it's like hard stuff. It just doesn't make any. It just I've never seen it laid out like that and I have no idea how to help them.
Julie
So thank goodness already we're like two weeks into school and I'm already having to like, go to the homework helpers and figure out what in the heck they're talking about. So I'm having homework so I.
Andrew
Learn rational numbers and irrational numbers whole. Yeah, I'm like, I don't.
Julie
Know, like, yes, I'm like, Wait, I don't know what they're asking. So that's been my go to this week.
Kevin
Let's see what I'm going to is going to pick some app on my phone that I think that I use that I think most people may not have. There's one called Sunshine Birthdays. You've all seen this before. That's Marissa mayer of former Yahoo Fame. That's her company. And what it does is it lets you log in and connect all of your different accounts and just create a single source of truth, people's birthdays.
Kevin
It also does the same thing for contacts. So it's kind of like an iCloud. That's not Apple only, but it'll go to all of your social networks, your Gmail, whatever, and your calendars already, and then it'll say, Hey, there's three different birthdays or three different profiles for Andrew. Pete, do you want to consolidate them? Is this the right day?
Kevin
It's one of those small little things that and then it reminds you, you can look at it easily a week in advance or a mother of and Sue's birthdays are coming up. They're their play, as you know. They make it really easy to order someone something if you want to through the app. But it's just one of those nice little things that you're like, this is just helpful to not not miss birthdays anymore.
Andrew
Does it go through like does it prefer Amazon as far as like it tries to sync it to Amazon, like get you to buy? The reason I'm saying the best purchases from you have this really cool experience and then they get like the affiliate money from pushing all these transactions from their app. So I'm like, Oh, that's genius.
Andrew
Like, let's make it easy for people to shop for birthdays. We make money by being affiliate with all these different e-commerce companies.
Kevin
I might have spoke too quickly there. I thought an option to send presents, but what I'm getting now is just ordering cards or cards.
Andrew
Oh, they go.
Kevin
It's probably just through their on experience.
Andrew
It's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. It is a hard to remember.
Kevin
Something and it's called sunshine. It'll brighten your day.
Andrew
I think. Sunshine.
Kevin
All right, that'll do it for season one of marketing. Of marketing. Be sure to join us for the beginning of season two next week. We'll see you then.
Julie
See.
